It is currently Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:17 pm





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 176
In my Divine Power manual, there is this feat:

Touch of Salvation
Prerequisite: 11th Lv, Cha 15, Paladin, Lay on Hands or Call of Virtue power
Benefit: When you use your Lay on Hands or Call of Virtue on an ally, that ally can make a saving throw with a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.

The problem is... I have NO IDEA what Call of Virtue is! It isn't in any of my source material. (PHB and Divine Power)

Assuming that "Call of Virtue" is the wrong name for a Paladin power important to this feat, I'm now faced with determining which paladin power this incorrect name is in reference to.

The best two guesses I can come up with are both from Divine Power:

1. Virtue's Touch (A power you can select in place of Lay on Hands)

2. Virtue (A 2nd Lv utility prayer listed slightly below Call of Challenge)

Left to my own devices, I would assume 10 to 1 that this feat means to say "Virtue's Touch." But you guys are the errata experts... Is this an obvious typo, or did the name of some power change with errata? (unlikely, since the feat in question comes from the same book)

_________________
PC: But if you're saying that this door is also a jar, then HOW can it NOT be MAGICAL?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:41 am
Posts: 1334
You are correct that they meant Virtue's Touch. You can find the correction in the rules updates -

Call of Virtue
Pages 133, 136, 139, 140, 142: All mention of the
“call of virtue” power on the noted pages should be
changed to “virtue’s touch.” This corrects the discrepancy
in names.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateDP.pdf

_________________
The mermaids in the basement
Came out to look at me,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:58 pm
Posts: 993
And all rules updates/errata can be found at http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updatesarchive.

_________________
I will often hit Submit and then think of something more to say, or a better way to say it. So don't be surprised if a post I made 5 minutes ago isn't the same as the one you think you're replying to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 176
Another thing about Divine Power:

The Multiclass feats toward the back can be pretty confusing. For instance, I noticed that Four of them are only for characters who chose to paragon multiclass into a divine class. I've never done that before, and I don't know how it works yet.

Then there are the other four... They look like maybe alternate options for multiclassing into a certain divine class, or maybe just re-designed, better feats for multiclassing into a divine class (especially the Avenger) but in every case, the stat prerequisite is more demanding.

How do I treat those? Do I view them as higher multiclassing options, where the first multiclass feat (from the PHB) is a prerequisite in order to then take the new multiclass feat from Divine Power? Or do I view them side-by-side, so as to say: "Here is another point of entry into this divine class that you didn't know about before."

And then, there's the final question:

Divine Channeler

It seems like a feat they included for the sole purpose of letting the character's creator pick what one Channel Divinity class feature they would start with upon multiclassing into a certain divine class. If that's the case, why didn't they just do that in the first place? It's easier. And more importantly, is Divine Channeler supposed to work like those special feats that say: "Each time you take this feat, you can gain another class feature from the list?" If so, that would effectively make it like a Hybrid talent feat, but in a multiclass variety.

_________________
PC: But if you're saying that this door is also a jar, then HOW can it NOT be MAGICAL?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:58 pm
Posts: 993
1) Paragon Multiclassing is described in the original Players Handbook, p209. Basically, if you take a multiclass feat into another class, it opens up the three power-swap feats (Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power). If you take all three of these power-swap feats, then instead of taking a paragon path at 11th level, you can continue to gain powers from your other class in pre-defined ways. So you sacrifice three feats to replace some of your main class powers with powers from your multiclass, and then you give up your paragon path in order to more fully replace powers from your main class with powers from your multiclass. So those multiclass feats in Divine Power require you to not only take a multiclass feat, but to do a full-fledged paragon multiclass into that class.

Normal multiclassing is basically 'dipping your toes' into a single other class (unless you're a Bard, of course), and Paragon Multiclassing is intended to more fully integrate a second class into your primary class. The Paragon Multiclassing rules pre-date the option to have Hybrid classes, but were not invalidated by those rules, as they work in different ways.


2) The normal Multiclass feats in Divine Power are indeed alternate options to the previous ones in the source books for the Cleric, Invoker, Avenger, and Paladin. And that's all they are - alternate options. One can't be a 'prerequisite' for another, since there are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat: first, you can’t take a multiclass feat for your own class, and second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class (unless you're a Bard). So once you took, say, Initiate of the Faith, you would count as a Cleric for purposes of feat selection, so would not be allowed to take Divine Healer, since that would be 'taking a multiclass feat for your own class'.

If I want to multiclass into Cleric, I can take the Initiate of the Faith feat from the PHB and get training in Religion and access to the healing word power, or I can take the Divine Healer feat from DP and get training in the Heal skill and get the Healer's Lore class feature. Which one I choose depends on which one benefits me and my character plans more, and also which one I qualify for. The Healer's Lore class feature only applies to Cleric powers, so I'd probably only take Divine Healer if I am planning to add Cleric powers to my character, either through the aforementioned power-swap feats or through some other means I've not thought of. I'd take Divine Healer if Heal wasn't one of my class skills and I wanted to get training from it (since getting Heal+access to healing word is just plain better than using the Skill Training feat to just get trained in Heal, assuming I qualify for the multiclass feat), or if I were a non-leader class and wanted to get a healing power in case of emergencies.


3) Since most divine class-specific multiclass feats don't grant you Channel Divinity, Divine Channeler is a way to get a Channel Divinity power from another class. If I wanted to get the Cleric's ability to turn undead, the normal Cleric multiclass feats Divine Healer or Initiate of the Faith would not get me this - I would either need to have started life as a Hybrid Cleric and take a Hybrid Talent feat in place of my paragon path, not be a hybrid and go into full-blown Paragon Multiclassing and qualify for the Channel of Faith feat (which would have Divine Healer or Initiate of the Faith as a pre-req anyway), or I could just take Divine Channeler and be done with it. If I'm a Fighter and all I want to do is use turn undead to simulate a 'battle shout' that can scare even the undead, then Divine Channeler is a quick and easy way to get it without further mucking about in the world of the Cleric.

Since Divine Channeler counts as a class-specific multiclass feat for the chosen class, you can't "further" multiclass into that class by taking an additional class-specific multiclass feat for that (or any other) class once you've taken that feat. Even a Bard can't take it more than once, since while the Bard's Multiclass Versatility class ability allows them to choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class, he is still restricted in not being able to take class-specific multiclass feats for the same class more than once.

_________________
I will often hit Submit and then think of something more to say, or a better way to say it. So don't be surprised if a post I made 5 minutes ago isn't the same as the one you think you're replying to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 176
Khime wrote:
1) Paragon Multiclassing is described in the original Players Handbook, p209. Basically, if you take a multiclass feat into another class, it opens up the three power-swap feats (Novice Power, Acolyte Power, Adept Power). If you take all three of these power-swap feats, then instead of taking a paragon path at 11th level, you can continue to gain powers from your other class in pre-defined ways.


Ah... I never understood the importance of the power-swap feats until now. That makes sense the way you explained it. Thanks a ton.

Khime wrote:
2) The normal Multiclass feats in Divine Power are indeed alternate options to the previous ones in the source books for the Cleric, Invoker, Avenger, and Paladin. And that's all they are - alternate options. One can't be a 'prerequisite' for another, since there are two restrictions on your choice of a class-specific multiclass feat: first, you can’t take a multiclass feat for your own class, and second, once you take a multiclass feat, you can’t take a class-specific feat for a different class (unless you're a Bard). So once you took, say, Initiate of the Faith, you would count as a Cleric for purposes of feat selection, so would not be allowed to take Divine Healer, since that would be 'taking a multiclass feat for your own class'.

Right. I forgot about those restrictions.

Khime wrote:
Since Divine Channeler counts as a class-specific multiclass feat for the chosen class, you can't "further" multiclass into that class by taking an additional class-specific multiclass feat for that (or any other) class once you've taken that feat. Even a Bard can't take it more than once, since while the Bard's Multiclass Versatility class ability allows them to choose class-specific multiclass feats from more than one class, he is still restricted in not being able to take class-specific multiclass feats for the same class more than once.


Okay, again, I forgot that rule about multiclass feats. But I would still argue that a bard SHOULD be able to use it more than once, just not in the same divine class. Like he should be able to get Oath of Enmity (avenger) and Healing word (cleric) but not Oath of Enmity AND Abjure Undead (Avenger, Avenger) or Healing Word AND Divine Fortune (Cleric, Cleric).

Khime wrote:
3) Since most divine class-specific multiclass feats don't grant you Channel Divinity, Divine Channeler is a way to get a Channel Divinity power from another class.


Ah, yes! It's clear to me now. Divine Channeler might be the only way that a Runepriest (the forgotten divine class) might ever get Channel Divinity powers and (at least just the one) Channel Divinity class feature.

Hey... If a Runepriest is allowed to gain Channel Divinity through Divine Channeler, then it could finally be possible for him to take the Channel Divinity feat specific to his patron deity!

And just for kicks and grins, if you have a Ranger character who is devout to a certain deity, she too could finally have a pathway to calling upon their patron. (after spending two feats, or possibly a third to get trained in religion) But at least now, it can be done. That's neat!

Seriously though, the Runepriest got hosed in Divine Power. I wonder why... Is it because of the wealth of feats they already had in PHB3? Or is it because their Runic feats stack and they didn't want to make the Runepriest too awfully powerful?

But even though the Runepriest did not get any specific feats in Divine Power all to themselves, they DID still get multiple feats that were opened-up to all divine classes:

Divine Mastery
Divine Health
Clinging Radiance
Punishing Radiance
Icon of Hope
Icon of Purity
Pervasive Light
Nimbus of Light
Invigorating Critical
Saving Grace
Demonbane
Devilbane
and potentially, Holy Speech

And with Divine Channeler, now they're opened up to:

Versatile Channeler
Armored by Faith
Darkfoe
and Glorious Channeler

That's quite a haul-in for not being specifically mentioned in the book even once!

_________________
PC: But if you're saying that this door is also a jar, then HOW can it NOT be MAGICAL?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:41 am
Posts: 1334
The Runepriest got hosed by Divine Power for the simple reason that Divine Power was published before the PH3, and there was no such thing as a Runepriest yet.

_________________
The mermaids in the basement
Came out to look at me,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:58 pm
Posts: 993
GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
Okay, again, I forgot that rule about multiclass feats. But I would still argue that a bard SHOULD be able to use it more than once, just not in the same divine class. Like he should be able to get Oath of Enmity (avenger) and Healing word (cleric) but not Oath of Enmity AND Abjure Undead (Avenger, Avenger) or Healing Word AND Divine Fortune (Cleric, Cleric).
What I was trying to get across was that not even a Bard could take the Divine Channeler feat and get a Cleric Channel Divinity feature, and then "further multiclass" into Cleric by also taking Initiate of the Faith or Divine Healer, since that would be two multiclass feats for the same class. I've no problem with Bards taking Divine Channeler for every single divine class out there. :D

And yeah, Divine Power pre-dates the Runepriest 4E writeup by about 8 months, so no RP love in DP.

_________________
I will often hit Submit and then think of something more to say, or a better way to say it. So don't be surprised if a post I made 5 minutes ago isn't the same as the one you think you're replying to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Virtuous Paladin feat typo?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:41 pm
Posts: 176
Ah, everything makes sense now. :D

_________________
PC: But if you're saying that this door is also a jar, then HOW can it NOT be MAGICAL?!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forum/DivisionCore.
D&D 4th edition product