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 Post subject: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:22 pm 
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I'm currently making a gallant Valorous Bard, with the chivalry and the songsword and all that jazz... One of the ideas I have for this character is to have a voice so powerful that when used in conjunction with his songsword modifiers, it can have a highly-kinetic effect. I want this guy to have the maximum possible pushing power with his voice. Damage is only a secondary concern. I know it won't be easy, but I'm prepared to use every bit of his Multiclass Versatility to pull it off if need be. I've seen similar threads where people ask for the highest possible DPR character build. This time, I am asking what's the highest PPR?

You can come at this from one of two ways:

1. You can accept the challenge to try and do this starting from a bard's perspective or

2. You can just look at what class/race can achieve the best PPR and let me worry about how to make my bard do that too.

My ultimate goal is to see if it's possible to make an attack push someone so hard that even an elf (with move rate 7) could not both re-engage and attack my bard in the following round. (action points aside) Any input I can get on this issue would be wonderful.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:43 am 
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Your parameter means you need to push at least 15 squares (for an elf, he can move 7, then charge 7, and engage). Note, you may need 17 squares, as the elf could choose to run 9, then charge 7. Granted, the elf will have penalties due to running with the move action, but at least you know what you are up against.


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18 am 
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I'm not an expert of optimization, but I'm pretty sure that your PPR goal is not attainable for any class or combination of classes, certainly not using just the books you have. You might want to consider effects like Slow and Prone in combination with Pushes.

The shoutingest Class (besides the Bard) is the Thunderborn Barbarian (Primal Power). Avengers and Invokers also have a fair amount of Thunder and pushing, and any Controller has decent pushes and slides. Satyrs (Heroes of the Feywild) have a slide as their Racial Power, and are optimized for Valourous Bards as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:09 pm 
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As has been mentioned, the combination of move+charge means you're having to deal with 14+ squares of movement from an Elf, rather than just 7, so your best best is a push/slide in combination with a slow or prone, so they either are limited in how far they can move, or they're forced to burn a move action just to stand up.

As for a Bard, some browsing of the compendium came up with:

  • Staggering Note at-will power (Dragon 383): Does thunder damage, and pushes the target 2, but it's a ranged attack, so using it can provoke.
  • Mark of the Storm [Dragonmark]: When you hit an enemy with thunder or lightning power, you can slide the enemy 1.
  • Bard Feat: Battle Song Expertise (Dragon 402): +1 feat bonus to push/pull/slide with Bard powers
  • Gauntlets of the Ram: Add 1 square to the distance of any push effect you create.
  • If the bard MC's into a class that can use Orbs or Staves as implements (such as Wizard), they can use the superior implements Petrified Orb and Quickbeam Staff, which both add 1 to the distance of push/pulls/slides. A Bard mc'd into wizard could use a Quickbeam Staff, and also take the Staff Expertise feat so their Staggering Note power doesn't provoke OAs when used.

So all of the above could be used to make Staggering Note a Push 5, and the Mark of the Storm tacks a Slide 1 onto that (whether or not that extra slide would also be augmented any of the above probably runs up against the whole 'no stacking benefits from the same named source' limitation).

I had pondered throwing a Staggering weapon into the mix, but that works with weapon powers, not implement powers, and it looks like most all of the push/slide Bard powers are the implement ones; at least the at-wills, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:35 pm 
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deek wrote:
Your parameter means you need to push at least 15 squares (for an elf, he can move 7, then charge 7, and engage). Note, you may need 17 squares, as the elf could choose to run 9, then charge 7. Granted, the elf will have penalties due to running with the move action, but at least you know what you are up against.


Holy crap! I forgot a bout charge! Oh man...

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Emily Dickinson wrote:
You might want to consider effects like Slow and Prone in combination with Pushes.

The shoutingest Class (besides the Bard) is the Thunderborn Barbarian (Primal Power). Avengers and Invokers also have a fair amount of Thunder and pushing, and any Controller has decent pushes and slides.


I'll check all that out, Em. Thanks!


Emily Dickinson wrote:
Satyrs (Heroes of the Feywild) have a slide as their Racial Power, and are optimized for Valourous Bards as well.


Go figure... I'll keep my eyes peeled for that one too. That's an Essentials book right? What's the price range on those?

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:09 pm 
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Khime wrote:
As has been mentioned, the combination of move+charge means you're having to deal with 14+ squares of movement from an Elf, rather than just 7, so your best best is a push/slide in combination with a slow or prone, so they either are limited in how far they can move, or they're forced to burn a move action just to stand up.


Ah, yes. Those added effects are the way.

Khime wrote:
As for a Bard, some browsing of the compendium came up with:

[list][*]Mark of the Storm [Dragonmark]: When you hit an enemy with thunder or lightning power, you can slide the enemy 1.

[*]Gauntlets of the Ram: Add 1 square to the distance of any push effect you create.


What's a dragonmark? If it'f a dragonborn thing, I'm not gonna use it. I wanted this guy to be either a halfling or Half-Elf. But Emily's Satyr suggestion definitely adds Satyr to the list.

Are those gauntlets something found in an adventurers's vault? I don't yet have any of those.

Khime wrote:
So all of the above could be used to make Staggering Note a Push 5, and the Mark of the Storm tacks a Slide 1 onto that (whether or not that extra slide would also be augmented any of the above probably runs up against the whole 'no stacking benefits from the same named source' limitation).


:o All that for just 5? Grrr.... :x It's ok. I'll find something else to do to it.

Khime wrote:
I had pondered throwing a Staggering weapon into the mix, but that works with weapon powers, not implement powers, and it looks like most all of the push/slide Bard powers are the implement ones; at least the at-wills, anyway.


Oh, that's just fine! If you feel like it, then please do expound on that. Because if they can spend an Action Point, then so can I! So I could use a melee attack coupled with a shout to get the desired effect. But then again, AP's are not something to be spent lightly. Especially in the first round of combat, which is what I'd use it for. This character is all about coming off super-strong as a deterrent to any desire for round 2. So basically, he's an "overkill pacifist," if such a thing does actually exist... Hm, action point... Is there any basis at all for me trying to justify the shout portion of such an attack as a minor action, or a sustain minor?

And also, I was almost sure there'd be some push power or something out there that had something like: (push/slide 1+ability mod squares) Because I'm not above pumping one single stat excessively to make this goal more attainable. Especially not if it's the Charisma stat. I'll go 20 and upwards on that!

Thanks everyone for your suggestions so far. You've all been very helpful in getting me to understand this better.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:03 pm 
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GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
What's a dragonmark? If it'f a dragonborn thing, I'm not gonna use it.
Dragonmarks are basically magical birthmarks introduced in the Eberron campaign setting, but usable anywhere (with DM permission for that source material, of course); they're prophecy written in mortal flesh.
GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
Are those gauntlets something found in an adventurers's vault?
Gauntlets of the Ram are in the Player's Handbook, p247.
GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
Is there any basis at all for me trying to justify the shout portion of such an attack as a minor action, or a sustain minor?
All powers specify what type of action they require. If it's a power that requires a Standard action to use, then it requires a standard action. Only powers with a Sustain keyword can be sustained from round to round.
GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
And also, I was almost sure there'd be some push power or something out there that had something like: (push/slide 1+ability mod squares)
There are a few like that, but they're almost exclusively in the hands of Controllers like a Wizard, so you'd need to either be a controller class or start doing power-swap feats into one to get into that realm. I've not really researched them that much.

Also, those powers usually add a stat modifier, not a stat, and not a stat modifier+1/2 level. So a push 2+ConMod would be a Push 7 with a 20 Constitution, whether you're level 1 or level 30.

I was mostly looking at at-will powers, so this trick could be done over and over. If you're wanting to alpha-strike at the start of the fight, then an encounter or daily power could be augmented. If you used a close/melee attack, then the Rushing Cleats (from Adventurer's Vault, sadly) add +1 to push/slide attacks, so you could use:

Shout of Triumph (Bard Encounter): Close Blast 3, push all enemies in blast 1 square, and it has the thunder keyword so it can be boosted by all of the stuff I listed for Staggering Note. Also, if your Bard has the Virtue of Valor, that initial 'push 1' becomes 'push ConMod'. So a 20 constitution bard would push all enemies in a clost blast 5(ConMod)+1(battle song expertise)+1(gauntlets of the ram)+1(quickbeam staff)+1(rishing cleats)=9, along with a slide 1 (or maybe more, depending).

Since you don't care to use items from sourcebooks you lack, though, some of that will be unavailable. Staggering weapons are also from the Adventurer's Vault; if you hit someone with a power that already slides them, it adds the weapon's bonus to the slide distance.

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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:03 pm 
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The Warlock L17 encounter power "Sea Tyrant's Fury" is a close blast 5, push Int and knock prone. With the addition of the various items mentioned above to a high INT stat, you could probably work up to INT+3 easily enough. Hit your target at range 5 (at the end of the blast), push him INT+3 and knock him prone, I doubt he'll get back to you next round.


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 Post subject: Re: Maximum push distance
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Khime wrote:
Dragonmarks are basically magical birthmarks introduced in the Eberron campaign setting, but usable anywhere (with DM permission for that source material, of course); they're prophecy written in mortal flesh.


Are they selectable in the character sheet yet?

Khime wrote:
Gauntlets of the Ram are in the Player's Handbook, p247.


Ah... the reason I couldn't find them in the drop-downs was because I hadn't increased my player's level yet.

Khime wrote:
All powers specify what type of action they require. If it's a power that requires a Standard action to use, then it requires a standard action. Only powers with a Sustain keyword can be sustained from round to round.


Right, but can't the DM bend some rules sometimes?

Khime wrote:
There are a few like that, but they're almost exclusively in the hands of Controllers like a Wizard, so you'd need to either be a controller class or start doing power-swap feats into one to get into that realm. I've not really researched them that much.


I'll research those possibilities.

Khime wrote:
I was mostly looking at at-will powers, so this trick could be done over and over. If you're wanting to alpha-strike at the start of the fight, then an encounter or daily power could be augmented. If you used a close/melee attack, then the Rushing Cleats (from Adventurer's Vault, sadly) add +1 to push/slide attacks, so you could use:

Shout of Triumph (Bard Encounter): Close Blast 3, push all enemies in blast 1 square, and it has the thunder keyword so it can be boosted by all of the stuff I listed for Staggering Note. Also, if your Bard has the Virtue of Valor, that initial 'push 1' becomes 'push ConMod'. So a 20 constitution bard would push all enemies in a clost blast 5(ConMod)+1(battle song expertise)+1(gauntlets of the ram)+1(quickbeam staff)+1(rishing cleats)=9, along with a slide 1 (or maybe more, depending).


WOW! You're a genius, Khime! I'm using every bit of that. I'd like to stay with at-wills as much as possible, mainly because I want to keep the damage down. I want the powers to LOOK powerful enough to make others DECIDE not to continue the battle. I don't neccessarilly see this guy as a one-hit-kill artist.

Khime wrote:
Since you don't care to use items from sourcebooks you lack, though, some of that will be unavailable. Staggering weapons are also from the Adventurer's Vault; if you hit someone with a power that already slides them, it adds the weapon's bonus to the slide distance.


Well I don't like to use them, and I absolutely wont let my group use them... but I might use a couple un-sourced things on my NPCs to get a desired cinematic result. Which weapon do you think is most appropriate?

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Last edited by GoliathAssassin84 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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