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 Post subject: Glory days
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:53 am 
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My wife and I are doing a dry-run campaign together, just so I can get some combat basics down from a DM perspective. The thing is, we decided to import two of our 2E characters from one of our 2E campaigns, and we want to get as close as possible to what they were. There are only two things we are lacking at this point, and I'm not sure if they exist in 4E, or if 4E maybe offers something more appropriate to how we were using them.

1: My paladin had Boots of Speed in 2E, and I see the options:

Boots of Jaunting
Boots of Rapid Motion
Boots of Adept Charging

I was using these boots to travel great distances in short amounts of time, but I was also using them (possiby homebrew) with my DM's permission to do a kind of cleave attack on mobs of enemies. (I called it Running Razor) Rapid Motion sounds like a speed boost, which is accurate enough... Adept charging, though, sounds close to the attack I was using. Boots of Jaunting sounds a little vague... What's the difference between these boots, and which might be the closest for me keeping my 4E character true to the 2E source?

2. She was a fighter with this magic longsword that lit up a ghostly purple whenever the undead were around... Do they have a weapon like that in 4E?

3. She also had a white tiger familiar that adapted its fur coloring to harsh environments. (common tiger coloring in the desert, etc.) This is less important than the sword, but would still be cool to have. I haven't seen anything for familiars in 4E though, outside of Druid and Shaman classes, which she probably won't go for... Is there some errata?

4. And I think I already know the answer to this, but my 2E paladin used to dual-wield bastard swords. Is there any feat anywhere or any way that I can get my 4E Paladin to do the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:23 am 
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First, the standard caveat - 4e really is a different game, and trying to recreate anything from previous editions is likely to be more confusing and more frustrating than starting from scratch. As an experiment, of course, you are free to try it and see what you get.

1. I don't know what Boots of Speed actually did in 2e, and it sounds like you don't know what most of these 4e Boots do simply because you don't have those books. One good option, no matter which boots you take, is to give your Paladin a Power like Ardent Strike or Glorious Charge (Level 1 At-Will and Level 1 Daily, both in Divine Power) and explain part of its effect as coming from your enchanted boots - it could even be a kicking attack, if you want to describe it that way.

2. No idea - anything can light up ghostly purple if you want it to, but actually warning you of undead in the area might or might not exist...

3. Familiars are mostly described in Arcane Power. Shamans have a Spirit Companion, Rangers can get a Beast Companion in Martial Power 1, Sentinel Druids get a Beast Companion in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Fey Beast Tamer is a Background in Heroes of the Feywild that can give you a Fey Panther, which actually sounds pretty close.

4. There is a Feat in Martial Power 1 that would allow your Paladin to dual-wield Bastard Swords as a multiclass Ranger, but that Feat by itself would not actually give any benefit from doing so, other than the dubious advantage of choosing which sword you will use for any given attack. Without Twin Strike or something similar, you gain no extra attacks from that off-hand weapon. A Hybrid Ranger/Paladin is theoretically possible, but it's not easy to get everything you want.

Last point - a Fighter and a Paladin are actually a really lousy combination, since both of them are designed for protecting weaker party members. You might want to look at using an Avenger, Cleric, or Runepriest for your "Paladin" and/or a Warlord, Ranger, or Barbarian for your "Fighter".

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:27 pm 
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Open Grave has a ritual called Corpse Light; "A sickly green flame springs forth, washing the area in nauseating light. In its illumination, those that walk in undeath are revealed beyond a doubt."

I don't know if there's a weapon with a similar power though.


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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Emily Dickinson wrote:
1. ...and it sounds like you don't know what most of these 4e Boots do simply because you don't have those books.


That's why I was asking you guys what they do... Do you know?

Emily Dickinson wrote:
One good option, no matter which boots you take, is to give your Paladin a Power like Ardent Strike or Glorious Charge (Level 1 At-Will and Level 1 Daily, both in Divine Power)


I considered both of those, especially Glorious Charge

Emily Dickinson wrote:
3. Familiars are mostly described in Arcane Power. Shamans have a Spirit Companion, Rangers can get a Beast Companion in Martial Power 1, Sentinel Druids get a Beast Companion in Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Fey Beast Tamer is a Background in Heroes of the Feywild that can give you a Fey Panther, which actually sounds pretty close.


Problem is, she never had that background. I never understood why he gave it to her in the first place. She never asked for a familiar, one just appeared. I think he did it mainly to keep me from snuggling with her over extended rests... that stupid cat never did anything useful anyway, even when she brought up ideas for things it could do. It was just there to annoy me, I think. We can do without it...

Emily Dickinson wrote:
4. There is a Feat in Martial Power 1 that would allow your Paladin to dual-wield Bastard Swords as a multiclass Ranger, but that Feat by itself would not actually give any benefit from doing so, other than the dubious advantage of choosing which sword you will use for any given attack. Without Twin Strike or something similar, you gain no extra attacks from that off-hand weapon. A Hybrid Ranger/Paladin is theoretically possible, but it's not easy to get everything you want.


Yeah... the single-weapon attack... dumbest change in 4E in my opinion. I don't care if you're a wizard using two broken tree branches as clubs, it's NOT that hard to dual-wield! I mean, charge me a feat for doing it or whatever, but there should be absolutely no reason that a PC of ANY class with a dex above 10 or 12 couldn't learn to dual-wield at some point in the adventure. I might just homebrew that one... especially if there's only gonna be the two of us. We need the extra hands... literally!

Emily Dickinson wrote:
Last point - a Fighter and a Paladin are actually a really lousy combination, since both of them are designed for protecting weaker party members. You might want to look at using an Avenger, Cleric, or Runepriest for your "Paladin" and/or a Warlord, Ranger, or Barbarian for your "Fighter".


I know... I was thinking the same thing. The only thing I thought would save it is that my Paladin can heal kind of like a half-leader role. She might be persuaded to be a Warlord... If not, i'll do something.

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Ravn wrote:
Open Grave has a ritual called Corpse Light; "A sickly green flame springs forth, washing the area in nauseating light. In its illumination, those that walk in undeath are revealed beyond a doubt."

I don't know if there's a weapon with a similar power though.


That's helpful, Ravn.

It's substantial enough for me to be able to design a purple-glowing weapon with my DMA when she gets to the appropriate level to find and re-claim it.

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:16 pm 
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GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
Yeah... the single-weapon attack... dumbest change in 4E in my opinion. I don't care if you're a wizard using two broken tree branches as clubs, it's NOT that hard to dual-wield! I mean, charge me a feat for doing it or whatever, but there should be absolutely no reason that a PC of ANY class with a dex above 10 or 12 couldn't learn to dual-wield at some point in the adventure. I might just homebrew that one... especially if there's only gonna be the two of us. We need the extra hands... literally!
Being able to take a single feat that gives you two attacks per turn instead of one (one with each weapon) is effectively giving you two standard attack actions per turn, which totally breaks the math and balance things. You're literally twice as effective at doing damage as any other player.

A lot of what you can do in 4E in combat is based on the idea of an "economy of actions." 4E is balanced around the assumption that being able to take more than the standard/move/minor actions in a given turn is something fairly rare. A level-appropriate monster for a group of 5 adventurers is only level-appropriate if that party is, on average, putting out 5 attacks per turn. Putting out 6, 7, or 8 attacks per turn, either via having more party members or somehow regularly gaining more actions, makes a level-appropriate encounter for a party of 5 now a simple or trivial encounter. Having more than 5 players in a party is something that the level-appropriate encounter rules are already geared to scale with; having one character do the same number of attacks as two is not.

Things that grant you an additional action (whether it be a standard, a move, or a minor) don't happen very often, and usually have a cost of some sort associated with them. The most common way to get an extra action, the action point, is only usable once per encounter, and on average you can only get this extra action once every two encounters.

For example, in prior editions, there was a spell called Haste, which let you take an increased number of attacks per round and increased your movement speed as well, and it lasted for a certain number of turns. In 4E terms, that would be the equivalent of giving someone multiple standard and multiple move actions every turn for an entire encounter - game breaking! In comparison, the 4E spell Haste is a Level 16 Bard Daily power that lets the Bard sacrifice a single one of their minor actions to grant one ally a single extra standard action. So once per day, a bard who takes that power can give one ally a single extra action, in exchange for one of their own minors. Basically an extra out-of-turn action point with a cost. Useful, powerful, but not so unbalanced as to be game-breaking.

Personally, if I were to house-rule that someone could more or less permanently attack twice per turn (once with each weapon they wield), I would consider that party to have an extra member when designing encounters, and scale up the monsters accordingly without scaling up the XP reward.

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:06 pm 
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If dual wielding is a central part of the character, be a Ranger. If you take high Strength and Wisdom, high enough Constitution that you can gain proficiency in Heavy Armour, and multiclass into Cleric (or Paladin), you might be closer to a 2e Paladin than what you get by building a 4e Paladin, since the Defender aspect of a 4e Paladin is mostly absent from 2e. Remember, there is no rule that Rangers have to wear green or hang out in the forest - your Character is not required to ever think of himself as a "Ranger". One thing you would lose would be the high Charisma, but you can't have everything...

Now, it is very easy for any class to dual wield things other than off-hand Bastard Swords (and even gain some benefits with Feats), but you only get to use one weapon per attack. That's fair, right?

As far as giving you information about the Boots, let's be clear. This is not a forum for the free sharing of proprietary information. Without the actual stats, I don't know how you would incorporate magic items into your campaign.

...and if you didn't want the tiger to do anything, you didn't need to bring it up. It can tag along unhelfully and hide in the trees like the Cheshire Cat during combat.

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Some additional thoughts prompted by my little experiment to call a Ranger a Paladin (at this point, I'm mainly doing this for my own enjoyment):

Take Heal and Religion Skill Utilities (PH3) - Paladin-like power without spending a Feat.

I like the flavour of making his first Feat the Multiclass Cleric, so that his first few levels takes from a "Squire" with Longswords and Hide Armour to fuller Knighthood as he becomes proficient in Chain and Bastards, with Scale to follow. You might not need to put him in Plate until Paragon Tier...

More Generally - In 4e Class, Build, Powers, and Feats are mostly built around the mechanics of what you can do in combat. I'm very much in favour of using those rules for that purpose, and then describing things any way I want them.

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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:15 am 
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GoliathAssassin84 wrote:
Yeah... the single-weapon attack... dumbest change in 4E in my opinion. I don't care if you're a wizard using two broken tree branches as clubs, it's NOT that hard to dual-wield! I mean, charge me a feat for doing it or whatever, but there should be absolutely no reason that a PC of ANY class with a dex above 10 or 12 couldn't learn to dual-wield at some point in the adventure. I might just homebrew that one... especially if there's only gonna be the two of us. We need the extra hands... literally!
As someone who studied martial arts for years, as well as a very long stint in the military learning and training others in close combat, duel-wielding weapons is NOT an easy skill to pick up. What most people visualise as "dual wielding" is nothing more than holding two weapons at once, and picking which one they hit with when they make their move. Much like the current rules really.

Those who can effectively use two weapons at once, virtually simultaneously and without holding one weapon in check in order to strike with the other, are in a class of their own...two classes actually: Ranger and Tempest Fighter to put them in game terms.

I find this aspect of the rules pretty realistic (as well as balanced, as mentioned above)


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 Post subject: Re: Glory days
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:52 am 
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Emily Dickinson wrote:
If dual wielding is a central part of the character, be a Ranger. If you take high Strength and Wisdom, high enough Constitution that you can gain proficiency in Heavy Armour, and multiclass into Cleric (or Paladin), you might be closer to a 2e Paladin than what you get by building a 4e Paladin, since the Defender aspect of a 4e Paladin is mostly absent from 2e. Remember, there is no rule that Rangers have to wear green or hang out in the forest - your Character is not required to ever think of himself as a "Ranger". One thing you would lose would be the high Charisma, but you can't have everything...


True... I never thought of it that way. That's actually a very good idea. The loss of some of the Defender aspects would be tough, but my 2E Paladin never was a "tank" kind of character anyway... That hit to charisma doesn't really apply because my paladin needs only enough strength to qualify for future feats. She's always been the bruiser of the two, and the comedy of it works quite well in the story to make her feel powerful. (and more willing to play) This Paladin has always been about speed and persistence. The weaker each attack is, and the more effort he has to make to compensate for that, the more his character shines, and the more her character giggles and falls head over heels for him! Our entire dynamic is kind of a "who's saving who?" And we both have our moments in 2E. In 4E, my current paladin doesn't "rescue" so well... he's just a big ball of meat for enemies to hack on.

Emily Dickinson wrote:
Now, it is very easy for any class to dual wield things other than off-hand Bastard Swords (and even gain some benefits with Feats), but you only get to use one weapon per attack. That's fair, right?


Call me old-fashioned... I personally like the extra attack.

Emily Dickinson wrote:
As far as giving you information about the Boots, let's be clear. This is not a forum for the free sharing of proprietary information. Without the actual stats, I don't know how you would incorporate magic items into your campaign.


Oh, I've crossed that line again, eh? Sorry...

Emily Dickinson wrote:
...and if you didn't want the tiger to do anything, you didn't need to bring it up. It can tag along unhelfully and hide in the trees like the Cheshire Cat during combat.


You're right, I could do that... Thing is, we would have wanted for it to do something... our DM just made it so hard for her to lead it that she stopped giving it orders altogether. It was a very lazy kitty under his interpretation... it wouldn't be under mine. But I'm not sure we need it anyway. We have already gotten through 3 encounters without it.

Bout the Heal and Religion Skill Utilities, I will definitely look into that... The more I think about his back story... He only recently decided to turn away from his family's evil legacy and follow the path of a Paladin... This Ranger, multi-Paladin idea is really gaining steam, Emily! Thanks for your input. (Cleric is out, sorry to say)

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